Tuesday, April 10, 2012
Chat Log - 6pm session: Roundtable: Purpose and Approach to Full Sim Art Exhibition Chat Log
People Detector: Found: Rowan Derryth
Sasun Steinbeck: This session is TEXT ONLY since we want a web-based, searcheable chat log of this session for future reference.
FreeWee Ling: Hi Rowan :)
Solo Mornington: heya rowan
Rowan Derryth: Hiya :-)
Sasun Steinbeck: This is a panel/group discussion, so please feel free to chime in if you have some experience you'd like to share. Some of the info you hear today may be specific to the LEA Land Grants, but I'm sure the info discussed today will be valuable to anyone doing a large-scale exhibit anywhere in the future. Please give the panel members plenty of time to answer your question, and members of the audience may chime in if they have something to add.
Zachh Cale: Hi Free!
Sasun Steinbeck: Please note that all open chat here today will be posted publicly on the LEA blog.
Zachh Cale: Hi Rowan!
Rowan Derryth: ;-0
Glyph Graves: (now she tells us)
Sasun Steinbeck: Just to give you some ideas on what topics are acceptable, anything concerning the challenges of creating a large-scale artistic exhibit is fair game, and here are a few ideas:
Rowan Derryth: ;-) too
Sasun Steinbeck: Permissions, groups, security, griefing, best land options/permissions, deeding, events, schedules, getting resources, collaborators, building issues, scripting, lag, curating, advertising.
Sea Mizin: greetings everyone
Pixels Sideways: So all your typos will be in print for posterity
Sasun Steinbeck: So at this time I'd like to open the floor to questions, and to get the ball rolling I have the first question :)
Sea Mizin: is this voice or text only?
Sasun Steinbeck: We had a great discussion on this earlier today, but again I'd like to hear the panel's thoughts on the issue of the view from one region to it's neighbors when you are buliding in an area that has other sims surrounding you, as many of the large events in the past have been. As you know the LEA Land Grant sims are not islands - all of them share at least 2, 3, or 4 neighbors on all sides. There seem to be two schools of thought around this - that really the only thing of importance is how the exhibit looks from *inside* the exhibit. The user teleports into a specific sim and is immersed in the environment created by that artist in that space. Perhaps phantom megaprim walls or a dome are in place to help the feeling of immersion in that environment. Visitors can easily find the various exhibits by using the LEA exhibit directory (at http://lindenarts.blogspot.com/p/lea-land-endowment-exhibits.html) or the exhibit tour HUD to get from one exhibit to another.
Sasun Steinbeck: text only
Rowan Derryth: Hope I'm not sitting on someone
Cecilia Delacroix: Sasun, I already have a question: does "large scale" mean one exhibit, or a campus of many exhibits?
Sasun Steinbeck: The other school of thought is that neighboring regions should not be an "eyesore" with visible megaprim walls or land walls on their outside perimiter. This way, a region that does not hide the view of the neighbors will not suffer from an awful view. In addition, having an easily discoverable path or way to get from one region to another can help visitors discover the various regions simply by walking or flying from one to another and not require them to depend on the tour HUD or the exhibit directory to get from one to the other.
Sasun Steinbeck: In a way the answer may depend on how visitors prefer to get from one exhibit to another, and that data we just don't have, but I'd like to hear the panel's thoughts on this issue.
Sasun Steinbeck: ok Cecillia we'll get that in a minute
Cecilia Delacroix: k
Oberon Onmura: whatever it is, there should be clear guidelines at the start
Glyph Graves: who would you like to start
Ernie Farstrider: and maybe we should start with the idea that the large scale thing is ART
Sasun Steinbeck: good point, and for those of you that are LEA artists don't be too concerned that we're going to throw a bunch of new rules at you now that you've already started building
Aley: more rules make it more chalenging!
Sasun Steinbeck: but chime in with your thoughts please :)
Pixels Sideways: so my mega prim 3000 m tower isn't an issue? :-)
Oberon Onmura: why would it be?
Sasun Steinbeck: good question :)
Pixels Sideways: I have a question
FreeWee Ling: I think if it's possible to get at least some to the sims separated into islands it would be very good for many installations. But I also like watching the dynamics of how poeple work in close proximity
Aley: if you will walk up 3k meters of stairs to the top you will get a prise :D
Glyph Graves: My preference by far is having the sims as seperate as possible
Oberon Onmura: me too
Glyph Graves: for a number of reasons
Sasun Steinbeck: yes we do plan on asking LL to set up the land grant regions in a checkerboard arrangement next time
Sasun Steinbeck: but for the next 5 months we are stuck with what we got, unfortuantely
Oberon Onmura: at least some of them
Rowan Derryth: But if that isn't a possibility, how do you make it work? Do your neighbours matter?
Pixels Sideways: since LEA is provided by LL, has anyone consdiered putting water only sims between the sims with bridges between them to give them more space around the sims?
Glyph Graves: often as an artist your tryin to create a certain immersive feel
Aley: chekerboarding has great advantages to the builders, but it's a huge hamper to visitors
Tony: We have had concerns about this as we were were working on an isolated sim before coming to LEA. I think we would have made different choices if we had started here.
Oberon Onmura: each sim could have a TP station
Solo Mornington: pixels, we have a certain sim allocation. we can't ask for more as water sims.
Glyph Graves: and having significant sized builds all around means that unless you box it in that lost
Pixels Sideways: but if you proivde point to point tps, it could be pretty easy
FreeWee Ling: Perhaps a tp kiosk can be set in each sim to allow easy transport among them.
Sasun Steinbeck: note that we do have the exhibit guide and the tour HUD, so that is one way that people can get to all the exhibits
Oberon Onmura: yes
Glyph Graves: yes the caerlion sim system was pretty good ...sasuns gallery thingy works great too
Pixels Sideways: i thought water sims were super minimal sims which wouldn't really take up that much server space/resources..
Oberon Onmura: I can see a sim at the corner of another sim, so ... does that mean I see all its updates?
Sasun Steinbeck: yeah the LEA exhibit directory is very very similar
Alana Pyara: I think a lot depends on what the object is that is big enough to be visible from the next region. An ugly board that breaks immersion is often horrible, or laggy moving images, but if its art, I dont mind.
Glyph Graves: I think thats is the case oberon
Sasun Steinbeck: hm I thought if they were checkerboard, you don't see neighbors, periodi, is that right?
Aley: a homested sim (water sim) is 1/4th of a full region on server resources
Oberon Onmura: no, you can see the corner sim
Oberon Onmura: but
Tony: The kinds of environments you can create on isolated sims is amazing but you sacrifice the sense of community you get with the current layout.
Oberon Onmura: the sim servers aren't interacting
Aley: checkerboarding keeps all regions invisable islands
Pixels Sideways: they have a smaller sim -- not homestead, it's water only... at least they used to
Oberon Onmura: are we talking about lag?
FreeWee Ling: open space
Oberon Onmura: sim servers interact arcross the long borders
Oberon Onmura: in many ways
Glyph Graves: but there is a visual load ... its quite possible for a neighboring sim to cripple the lower end viewers
Oberon Onmura: that's client lag
Glyph Graves: yes it is but its relevent
Oberon Onmura: yes
Sasun Steinbeck: or vice-versa like we found out, lag can affect newer viewers but not older viewers
FreeWee Ling: Anything that's visible in the next sim has to be rezzed by the one you're in, right?
Sasun Steinbeck: of certain kinds
FreeWee Ling: Child agents and so on.
Oberon Onmura: yes
Glyph Graves: its aslo the low end graphics cards that many have that can be an issue
Oberon Onmura: making art for all the different combinations of viewers/hardware/operating systems, etc. is quite a challenge
Pixels Sideways: my graphics card is operated by a hamster so i lag a lot :-)
Sea Mizin: ))
Sasun Steinbeck: Solo had a great idea at our morning session on hosting a future session on all the technical ins and outs of "lag" so that might be a great topic for a future talk. everything you ever wanted to know about lag
Glyph Graves: from an artists point of view though its the way other sims can impact on the feel you are trying to create
Rowan Derryth: My graphics/lag issue is why I prefer to tp around as a visitor, rather than wander
FreeWee Ling: I think you should make art for art. If not everyone can see it that;s a separate issue.
Oberon Onmura: yes
Rowan Derryth: Also because I enjoy the immersive experience, and so like to drop in the midst of an exhibit
Pixels Sideways: I do the same, Rowan.
Aley: SL has a long history, through events like burning life and the birthday events of exibits creating so much viewer andeven server side lag that there almost totaly unusable
FreeWee Ling: It's only a problem wihen in impacts the neighbors.
Solo Mornington: agreed, freewee. but there's a threshhold that makes it unworkable for neighboring sims.
Glyph Graves: theres another issue .. having neighbouring sims makes it very hard to controle the way the visitor sees the sim and how they get information about the sim
Aley: the checker boarding would impact the visitors, but is it worth it for the increased stability?
Sasun Steinbeck: on the other hand those kinds of problems are pretty rare, right? we did have some unexpected problems previously but that was a pretty exceptional case I'd guess.
Rowan Derryth: I guess the question is, though, if we have no control and sims HAVE to neighbour, what are suggestions to make that experience positive for artists AND visitors?
Pixels Sideways: the problem comes up that you can put a sim wide mega cube around the sim but if your draw distance is set higher, you'll cam out to the neighboring sim and break the "immersion"
Glyph Graves: do we have to though? is there a cost to seperate sims?
Sasun Steinbeck: we can't do it right now, unfortuately
Glyph Graves: I found that barriers didnt affect my vertex count from neibouring sims
Sasun Steinbeck: we just have to convince LL to do the work
Oberon Onmura: I read somewhere that it costs about $30 USD to run a professional server per month
FreeWee Ling: We takjed about that this morning. There are lots of kinds of lag - scripts. textures, avatars, There are ways to make things more efficient.
Rowan Derryth: It isn't a cost issue, it is getting the Lab to help sort it out issue, as I understand it
Alana Pyara: I would say each art project is an entity of it's own. So visitors probably benefit from finding out what is where, from a source like the hud or LEA listings etc, it is not as important to be able to easily walk around from one sim to another or see where they are going next from within another exhibit?
Oberon Onmura: I agree
Ernie Farstrider: I agree
Glyph Graves: yes I meant cost to LL and lea not monetry costs
Rowan Derryth: I think that as well
Ernie Farstrider: it like framing 2D art
Oberon Onmura: right now, I have some big, very visible exhibits on my sim borders. I love them all, but I don't especially want to see them behind my art works.
Rowan Derryth: The cost is there time, Glyph, ;-)
Pixels Sideways: I agree with Alana
Rowan Derryth: their! lol
Solo Mornington: there's a fee for moving regions, which I'd hope they waive if we asked them to. :-)
Sasun Steinbeck: I think it depends on how people like to explore. and I just don't have any kind of survey data so I don't think we have a good picture of how our "customers" actually behave, how they prefer to explore
Zachh Cale: IT helps to take sim layout into account when designing art exhibit, it's a much better user experience when the sims are integrated, or the neighboring designs are at least considered
Oberon Onmura: I don't see how that could happen Zachh
Oberon Onmura: realistically
Rowan Derryth: /me nods
Aley: tyeres NO WAY your going to gte us to build in a consistant theme :D
Sasun Steinbeck: I think that if we wanted to make sure that you could easily walk from one sim to another, we should have set that as a ground rule from the very beginning
Zachh Cale: well perhaps the solution is to checkerboard, but isn't it weird for users to see boxes and barriers
FreeWee Ling: I;ve realy enjoyed buzzing around all the sims to see what's happening. But I thing the practial problems for the artists are more compelling.
Sea Mizin: I preferred walking from sim to sim and some sims had common themes which made it nice.
Aley: ease to herd cats
Glyph Graves: yes artists like to make there own vision rather than incorporate 4 others
L1Aura Loire: I always say the same thing about this: think UP! Use the sky if you don't like what is going on next door on the surface.
Solo Mornington: so far the argument is pretty good for checkerboard. or a pattern where each sim has max 2 neighbors.
Glyph Graves: but sometimes you have to build on land
Ernie Farstrider: agreed
Oberon Onmura: I like having the land as an option
FreeWee Ling: A lot of people like to use water and terrain.
Sasun Steinbeck: good point, one solution to getting a clear 360 degree view is to build in the sky
Rebeca Bashly: i prefer to see abox behind my work than another totaly clashing piece
Glyph Graves: and often the terrain is very much part of the piece
Oberon Onmura: right
Zachh Cale: aren't boxes and walls so ugly tho
Sasun Steinbeck: yeah, then you miss out on the terrain
Aley: oddly most peole in SL think 2 dimentionaly, they dont think to look up unless theres redirected there
FreeWee Ling: You lost the horizon over 1K meters
Ernie Farstrider: yes
Pixels Sideways: sky an get busy too :-)
Sasun Steinbeck: I wonder if the machinima makers have issues with the view from certain sims
Sasun Steinbeck: you don't want some clashing build next door in the shot, for example
Oberon Onmura: yeah - the horizon thing up high is annoying
Zachh Cale: you can ignore the fact there is a sim next door, but it's still there :)
L1Aura Loire: Machinima makers are used to messing with draw distances for shots.
Sasun Steinbeck: ah ok
Glyph Graves: its better not to have them but if teh horizon is clutteed with unsymathetic builds .. they may be great builds but not what you want to make boxes are the only option
Aley: but distance is the viewers friend, if you build all your exibits at widly different sky levels theres zero visual interaction
Rowan Derryth: That's what I was going to say, about draw distance. Same with photographers
FreeWee Ling: You can always derender objects, Is it possible to derender a sim?
Zachh Cale: lol Free!
Cecilia Delacroix: L1, that's definitely a possible approach.....let visitors know to reduce their draw.
Oberon Onmura: So make a notecard to tell visitors to run down their draw distance? I don't think so.
Rebeca Bashly: i agree, boxes works best
Cecilia Delacroix: Oberon, why not?
Oberon Onmura: nobody reads anything
Ernie Farstrider: checkerboard
Rebeca Bashly: not all viewers chave option to derender
Rowan Derryth: I wouldn't do it as a notecard necessarily, perhaps a welcome message
Oberon Onmura: most people don't know how to derender
Solo Mornington: also you can't really derender a sim, other than by draw distance.
Pixels Sideways: you can build in the sky and so can your neighbor so the same problems can occur at various altitudes
Rebeca Bashly: good point
Aley: oberon is quite acurate, signs in SL are ignored background spam
Oberon Onmura: I don't want to start a visitor's experience with instructions
Rowan Derryth: But if you had a note or something called 'tips to reduce lag', some will read it
Rowan Derryth: I would
FreeWee Ling: I don't like boxes, but often ther are the best solution. I recomend making the outsides of them transparent, though
Ernie Farstrider: casual viewers will not alter their settings
Rowan Derryth: Luckily no one would force you to, Oberon
Oberon Onmura: :-)
Sasun Steinbeck: yes a wall is acceptable but currently the rule is that it must be transparent on the outside
Glyph Graves: no thats true most dont change their setting or even consider it
Cecilia Delacroix: As a pilot of jets here in SL, I can say that flying objects can be an issue for sky exhibits!
Glyph Graves: and they dont on the whole read notecards
Tyrehl Byk: The rule is impractical
Rowan Derryth: I think many don't know... or like me, forget :-)
FreeWee Ling: Several of the installations are not transparent.
Aley: the official SL info on setting ip land specificaly mentions if using walls, thye must be phantom and invisable on the outsides
Sasun Steinbeck: don't worry we'll be checking them to make sure they are transparent
Solo Mornington: that's the mainland rule, aley.
FreeWee Ling: There's no one to police that.
Sasun Steinbeck: the problem is that on the far side of the sim, the walls are not transparent
Solo Mornington: why is it impractical, tyrehl?
Pixels Sideways: also people use the sky for workshopping their builds so it can get pretty messy -- we had five sims comnected at caerleon at one time and it was pretty cluttered up there
Sasun Steinbeck: so if you have a big draw distance, it's not a perfect solution
Oberon Onmura: I do that Pixels
Cecilia Delacroix: Exactly, Pixel.
Tyrehl Byk: Because if your neighbor erects wall as well...then the point is moot.
Alana Pyara: Isnt there a problem with alphas for a lot of people? So a giant transparent wall might react in an unwanted way with your own textures that have alpas in them?
Oberon Onmura: true
Rebeca Bashly: yes
Zachh Cale: yes
Oberon Onmura: there's no perfect solution
Zachh Cale: right
Solo Mornington: a transparent wall isn't the same as an alpha wall.
Oberon Onmura: except checkerboarding the sims
Zachh Cale: except move the sim
Aley: 100% alpha generaly dosent cause alpha glitches
Rowan Derryth: Exactly...
Zachh Cale: but if you ignore the fact you currently have a neighbor, your visitors won't , they are taking in the whole experience
Rowan Derryth: Haveit has made a dome, and it reacts to the build in a couple spots, but I like the solution.. I think it is a bit more sensitive that a wall..
Glyph Graves: well it would seem easier to have separate sims than to try to patch over the problems with close sims
Rowan Derryth: And he's made it semi transparent on the inside too, so you can make out other builds beyond in a hazy way
Rowan Derryth: But that works for THAT exhibit.. which won't always be the case
L1Aura Loire: For right now, we have the sims where they are
Alana Pyara: I would think one solution could be in windlight settings to some extent. If you have them as region preference, you can control what time of day the person is seeing and you dont need giant walls to do that? Only in some cases of course.
Solo Mornington: windlight can do some of that, too, rowan.
Zachh Cale: what if tyrehl makes amazing particle fuzzy walls between each sim lol
Rowan Derryth: ?
Tyrehl Byk: Has anyone considered that a wall may well be an integral part of the design of a particular build?
Glyph Graves: yes .. I found the other builds shone through despite the inner wall being solid
Sasun Steinbeck: Yeah I think long term we just need to move the sims. If LL is ok with that :) We'll do our best to convince them, trust me.
Sasun Steinbeck: IF they renew our loan for another year, knock on wood
Zachh Cale: agreed, great choice!
Oberon Onmura: :-)
Pixels Sideways: a solution is we buy Mr. Humble a very expensive lunch in return for water only sims to give room around the build sims... the water sims can have simple featues on them to make them interesting to traverse.... and certainly teleports...
Banrion Constantine: Windlight can do a lot to set a mood and make a sim seem more isolated from its neighbors.
Sasun Steinbeck: good point Banrion
Solo Mornington: pixels, set it up. :)
Aley: /me would totaly cake over the surounding water sims :D
Oberon Onmura: do lal viewers automatically read WL settings now?
Oberon Onmura: all
Pixels Sideways: lol
Banrion Constantine: mmm cake.
Banrion Constantine: sorry.
Rebeca Bashly: no they dont read
Pixels Sideways: I hope he likes virtual food :-)
Rebeca Bashly: no t all
Oberon Onmura: so
Oberon Onmura: another notecard of instructions?
Sasun Steinbeck: it's an option as well, some people may just turn it off or ignore it
L1Aura Loire: So what are the solutions people have suggested? windlight, dome, taking neighbors into account, sky . . . what else?
Aley: my hobbie is decorting the underwater in homested oceans
Banrion Constantine: Thats their choice.
FreeWee Ling: The reality is that the checkerboard idea is something to pursue vigorously but will probably not happen soon. In the meantime people just need to be sensitive to their neighbors. and visitors
Solo Mornington: hehe I remember bryn used to hand out notecards with windlight settings waaay back in the day.
Banrion Constantine: you can only do so much.
Oberon Onmura: yes
Oberon Onmura: I ignored them all
Banrion Constantine: yeah, im bad like oberon.
Sasun Steinbeck: yes I've seen that quite a few times... and sound settings sometimes. To get things "just right"
Rebeca Bashly: and only 30 % of ppl falowed instructions:s
Zachh Cale: it's really a great gift from LL, these sims, and it does help to think of your neighbor as it stands, of course not compromise your vision, just take it into account of the user experience: they are going to see your neighbors
FreeWee Ling: I installed Bryn;s XML files. What a pain, but worth it.
Rowan Derryth: Way back? I've had them recently. And I actually DON'T ignore them because I like to have the experience as the artist intended. Call me crazy for paying attention to those things ;-)
Glyph Graves: if that ... I found most dnt even take a notecard
Aley: for visitors, play it like a web site developer. everything MUST look good on IE, even tho no one will admit to using IE
Rebeca Bashly: true
Ernie Farstrider: well pursue checkerboarding in terms of the appeal to the average avatar and the one who is deciding whether to stay in SL ... LL will understand that argument
Oberon Onmura: artists can't count on people reading their instructions
Zachh Cale: yes pop a message in their chat, and just one effective statement
Rowan Derryth: I agree, keep it brief
People Detector: Found: Yooma Mayo
Oberon Onmura: ooo
FreeWee Ling: We should have an orientation for each installation. Make people take a test before they're admitted..
Zachh Cale: attention spans are almost gone after that
Aley: and we have huge language differences
Banrion Constantine: lol
Oberon Onmura: hehe
Pixels Sideways: i like to make it so difficult for people to visit our installations that they consider smashing their computer :-)
Sasun Steinbeck: lol a test
Zachh Cale: they came for immersive experience, not to read.... not to sound obnoxious
Aley: i suspect the english speaking parts of SL are shrinkig
Oberon Onmura: no no - it's true!
Sasun Steinbeck: Question 1) WHAT is your favorite color?
Rowan Derryth: /me agrees with Zachh
People Detector: Found: claudia222 Jewell
Alana Pyara: Well after you have taken as many precautions as possible to you in sensible ways, it is up to the user to keep up with the basic features that make SL experience what it is today and not what it was five years back. I think making everything work for viewer one for example, or people who do not bother with basic settings, is just too much to ask.
Solo Mornington: heya claudia
Aley: make everything totaly language independant
Oberon Onmura: hey Claudia
Pixels Sideways: problem is, this isn't world of warcraft.... everythign here is fluid
Aley: claudia! :D
Rowan Derryth: Claudia :-)
claudia222 Jewell: hello all
Pixels Sideways: so every build being unique has different features...
FreeWee Ling: It's my life's purpose to get people to slow down and pay attention fer gods sake. Like going through the Louvre on roller skates.
Sasun Steinbeck: :)
Rebeca Bashly: claudia:)
Cecilia Delacroix: Zachh is likely, sadly, correct. The nice thing about AM Radio's installation was no maps, notecards, any of it....just totally immersive.
Oberon Onmura: I want my pieces to be engaging from the dtart
Oberon Onmura: start
Zachh Cale: lol Free!
Pixels Sideways: som require media to be played and if visitors dont' have media on, they won't see part of the work
Banrion Constantine: That's true, Alana. The best approach is to do your thing and keep your requirements simple and straightforward, the people that are interested will figure it out.
Glyph Graves: It aslo depends how close a build is to a common shared experience
Glyph Graves: if it is familiar then background isnt needed
Rowan Derryth: Let's all remember, though, that each of ou makes different kind of work. It is GREAT that some people don't want to fiddle with notecards. Other exhibits can be more complex, and that is great too.
Oberon Onmura: I was once at a large installation ... every point along it had a notecard telling me what to touch, where to look
Rowan Derryth: It isn't for us to say what is right or wrong in that regard.
Banrion Constantine: Keeps life interesting, anyway.
Alana Pyara: Im not saying everyone should have computers less than a month old, just some sensible "living with the times" can be expected from users.
Sasun Steinbeck: we do encourage our artists to push the limits - limits of all kinds, so don't be afraid :)
Banrion Constantine: And if you're going to fail, do so spectacularly. heh.
Aley: those limits are often relating to optimzation
Solo Mornington: exactly, ban. :-)
Zachh Cale: I always look for anotecard with Selavey
Oberon Onmura: I know about spectacular failures!
Sasun Steinbeck: hahahah yes
Tony: lol Banrion
Zachh Cale: Oberon and spectacular successes too
Oberon Onmura: it's all one
Zachh Cale: :)
Solo Mornington: spectacle
Solo Mornington: :-)
Oberon Onmura: yes
Oberon Onmura: spectacles
Oberon Onmura: hehe
Pixels Sideways: I usualy will hae a sign that say touch everything, including Oberon :-)
Banrion Constantine: lol
Oberon Onmura: :-)
FreeWee Ling: I'm working on an ArtGyro forum to talk about curation and criticism. How to get people to actually see what you're doing. I think exhibit design can be used to focus attention.
Aley: /me clicks on oberon :D
Rowan Derryth: lol
Sasun Steinbeck: sounds very interesting, how can we find out more?
Solo Mornington: that sounds great, free
Oberon Onmura: that counds useful Free
Oberon Onmura: sounds
Sasun Steinbeck: <- shill for FreeWee \o/
FreeWee Ling: http://artgyro.org/
Rowan Derryth: I'm all for that!
FreeWee Ling: I'll expect you all to be there.. heehee.
Aley: how about advertising?
Oberon Onmura: has anyone built a large installation on a homestead sim?
Aley: i have
Yooma Mayo: i have
Sasun Steinbeck: run into any problems?
Solo Mornington: Magoo comes to mind. but dunno if anyone here built there.
Tony: I have
Sasun Steinbeck: due to the fact that it's a homestead?
Oberon Onmura: 20 avatars
Sasun Steinbeck: hm that could be a good thing :)
Tony: script lag
Aley: you MUST super optimise the scripts and builds for least region impact with a homsted
Oberon Onmura: but
Rebeca Bashly: i did
claudia222 Jewell: thats a problem if 19 of them are bots
claudia222 Jewell: °?°
Sasun Steinbeck: homesteads have less script time in general?
Pixels Sideways: didn't rezzables use homestead sims?
Tony: we are redoing a few things because the actually happen too fast with a working sim.
Oberon Onmura: since homesteads share processor cores, your neighbor can be dragging everyone else down
Zachh Cale: yes!
Sasun Steinbeck: wow
Zachh Cale: and openings can be a nightmare
Zachh Cale: crash crash crash
Solo Mornington: that's true of all SL regions.
Oberon Onmura: yes
Glyph Graves: that can happen on normal sims too
Oberon Onmura: not the same though
Oberon Onmura: not as severe
Pixels Sideways: but not like homesteads...
Zachh Cale: yes true, but amplify it for homesteads
Solo Mornington: yah, less margin on a homestead
Glyph Graves: where one uses all the servers badwidth
Sasun Steinbeck: well thank goodness they didn't saddle us with homesteads. but curious, what if you had a choice 1 full region or 2 homestead sims for an exhibit?
Oberon Onmura: I've refused gigs on homesteads
FreeWee Ling: You shoild all see Aley and mcarp's sim. Fantastic stuff. Lots o' freebies :)
Pixels Sideways: full region unless my two other homestead neighbors didn't use scripts :-)
Glyph Graves: full regioin anytime
Aley: /me is the freebies queen
Aley: sasun has everything else
Sasun Steinbeck: ha!
Sasun Steinbeck: drat!
Aley: i'm an optimization freak, i love working with homesteds :)
FreeWee Ling: My inventory is pushing 90K
Solo Mornington: aley is taking up your slack. :-)
Zachh Cale: dear lord!
Solo Mornington: haha
Tony: It does require that Aley - I agree. You have to think more about what you are asking from the sim.
Pixels Sideways: Bans is 500 million :-)
Banrion Constantine: lol im working on trying to get mine down. Im at 118.. FTW
Glyph Graves: avatars still use a lot of resources ..so its not only how well you optimise
Banrion Constantine: hahaha
Aley: i recomend starting and using a new acount for the one step inventory clearing :D
Banrion Constantine: close.
FreeWee Ling: Aley's scupts are fantastic examples of prim optinization
Banrion Constantine: half if it is Aley's freebies.
Oberon Onmura: I wish I knew more about avatar physics and object physics - how they relate.
Aley: avatars get top hyarchy in a sims physics
Sasun Steinbeck: we discussed this in the morning but i'm very curious, claudia222 have you heard of any problems with visitors to your recent exhibit with all the mesh prims there? Are we rapidly approaching the age of massive mesh exhibits?
Glyph Graves: my understanding is that physical causes of lag arent throttled
Solo Mornington: hairstyles and attitudes.... how do they relate?
Glyph Graves: but scripts are
Aley: thats why a bunch of avatars can crush a sim
Glyph Graves: that can cause real problems
Cecilia Delacroix: I wish I knew more about how texture can create lag....I'm afraid to import RAW photo files to SL.
Glyph Graves: especiall with collisions
FreeWee Ling: Physics are crude.. Ive been trying to build a physical bell that swings with a physical clapper inside.. jeez.
Oberon Onmura: sometimes you just have to fake it Free
Oberon Onmura: :-)
Solo Mornington: textures create lag by being large
Cecilia Delacroix: yeah :(
Aley: faking special effects is a wonderfull challenge!
FreeWee Ling: I don't want to fake it. I'd rather not do it.
Sasun Steinbeck: the source doesn't matter much, they all wind up as jpeg2000 images internally, so they're all compressed
Glyph Graves: as an aside has anyone noticed that texture loading times seem to be getting slower
Sasun Steinbeck: size matters, as they say
Aley: ask around all kinds of groups for ideas of ways to work around efects that seem impossable in SL
Oberon Onmura: yes with the V2/V3 codebase
Aley: and you will almost always get a working sugestion
Rebeca Bashly: i noticed
FreeWee Ling: Don't ever upload a Jpeg. It;s not file size that matters but pixel depth.
Sasun Steinbeck: hm that's a scary trend, slower texture loads. I sure hope not
Glyph Graves: yes its very noticable to me too
Glyph Graves: I suspect some server side slowing too
Oberon Onmura: Glyph - do you use http loading?
Solo Mornington: well go to your Setup tab in preferences and look at your maximum bandwidth slider.
Solo Mornington: they keep changing settings with the viewer updates.
Glyph Graves: its going to be more pronounced with me as theres a 250 server ping time
Sasun Steinbeck: I've read that having the bandwidth s lider jacked up too high can do more harm than good, but I've never quite understood how that works
Oberon Onmura: there's a maximum effective bw
Cecilia Delacroix: Sasun, someone once tried to explain that to me. ;)
Pixels Sideways: we did a test when we got a new sim -- it as totally clena and we had five people wear a bunch of scripted objects and then looked at the sim resources and they were def affected
Oberon Onmura: I think about 8K
Glyph Graves: yes me too sasun ... causes bottlenecks?
Aley: oh a biggie, if you have a mid to slightly lower end computer, load up the default SL viewer and look around your exibit from a Newbie perspectivs with all low settings
FreeWee Ling: Be nice to have a resource to let people know how to optimize their viewers for art. Explain some stuff like that.
Aley: does it fall totaly apart?
Oberon Onmura: that's a good test Aley
Cecilia Delacroix: Free........great idea.
Rowan Derryth: We did a lot of tests with scripts and lag at the FLWVM and found they were the biggest offender
Sasun Steinbeck: good idea FreeWee, yes
Oberon Onmura: scripts?
Rowan Derryth: We drastically reduced things like scripted furniture as a result
Rowan Derryth: scripted objects, yes
Aley: Mcarp, my co builder, is a script efficency fanatic. so thats an easy fix
FreeWee Ling: Were you looking at server lag or also client side lag?
Sasun Steinbeck: I've seen quite a few cases where artists are just not at the ideal experitse level to understand how to optimize scripts and wind up doing really "bad" things unintentionally
Solo Mornington: mcarp has mad skillz.
Oberon Onmura: Selavy and I spent a while testing scripted objects
Rowan Derryth: Heh.. I'm not the person to ask..
Rowan Derryth: The builders and scripters did it
Sasun Steinbeck: hm. A class on Scripting for ARtists is what we need
Oberon Onmura: something like optimizing your scripts
Solo Mornington: sasun, I agree and I think it's best to err on the side of expression.
Pixels Sideways: but vistors too -- that's why we ask theat all visitors come as a cube only :-) --- but on a more serious note, it's a problem when people show up wearing a load of scripted stuff
Zachh Cale: yes!
FreeWee Ling: Ut;s not easy to know when you have a script lag issue if you don't have estate manager rights
Rowan Derryth: yeah
Oberon Onmura: true Pixels
Zachh Cale: easy to find and modify scripts, but optimizing is a fine art
Oberon Onmura: Solo has shoes with over 200 scripts in them!
Sasun Steinbeck: yes true FreeWee
Oberon Onmura: lol
Banrion Constantine: lol
Glyph Graves: you can do things like slow down your sensors and timers when theres no one around .. or near
Zachh Cale: are you serious
Pixels Sideways: lol
Glyph Graves: I do that a lot
Sasun Steinbeck: that's another change we need to think hard about, splitting up the estates into 20 estates
Rowan Derryth: What was the event recently that had the scanner thingy for that...
Solo Mornington: too bad I like that shoes. :-)
Pixels Sideways: i want those shoes!
Sasun Steinbeck: then making everyone an estate manager
FreeWee Ling: Make everyone strip down before the orientation.
Sasun Steinbeck: but then doing things like estate bans becomes a big pain
Aley: back when i build the privateer space sim, i was shooting for the pinical in lag free design, so i bullied in several scripting experts to come in and test the sim for bad scripts
Rowan Derryth: It was cool, and I shockingly passed the scan easy peasy
claudia222 Jewell: or just make a free avatar
claudia222 Jewell: what they have to wear
Banrion Constantine: lol Free
Zachh Cale: Is it possible for artists to be estate manager for a day or two, to play with land textures?
Cecilia Delacroix: I now have a lag meter at my welcome area, I dont know if it helps or not though
Zachh Cale: sometimes it's hard to know how a texture will look without trying and re-trying
Oberon Onmura: you could have a notecard
Rebeca Bashly: not bad idea claudia, seriously
Pixels Sideways: we've done free avatars but people are very married to their avatar wardrobes :-)
Solo Mornington: zachh, that's generally how we've been handling it, but prefer to minimize how long people have EM powers.
Glyph Graves: yes Zache!
Sasun Steinbeck: yes it is, in certain circumstances... just ask one of us if we can set that up for you. If you have no experience as an estate manager the answer may possibly be no. it's rather risky in that case
FreeWee Ling: I always wonder how much lag a lag meter causes.
Banrion Constantine: That is a great idea
Glyph Graves: thats a major thing
Cecilia Delacroix: LOL Free
Zachh Cale: Oh that's awesome - didn't know if that was a nono
Sasun Steinbeck: whole sims can be trashes rather quickly :)
Sasun Steinbeck: trashed*
Zachh Cale: yes
Solo Mornington: basically: please ask and we can talk about it.
Zachh Cale: ok thank you :)
Aley: i do not want full sim powers anymore, i go power mad
Zachh Cale: click with caution
Sasun Steinbeck: but really we don't mind if you have some pretty basic requests to fiddle with terrain textures, we'll come out and play with them and get them right
Oberon Onmura: every artist should run an opensim sim server for a while
Oberon Onmura: it's very educational
Sasun Steinbeck: but if you are a heavy tweaker that might not work so well :)
Glyph Graves: you may need it for a few days .. the time it takes for the textures to settle
Sasun Steinbeck: that's a great idea Oberon. and cheap
Zachh Cale: yes some artists are tweaking and tweaking for hours , but not day after day, just a couple days of that
Oberon Onmura: really really helpful
Zachh Cale: that is great idea
Pixels Sideways: i thought you could give estate mgt perms to people but make them region specific, that's not possible?
Sasun Steinbeck: we'll try to work with you, don't worry
FreeWee Ling: I want to say publicly that Solo and Sasun are doing a great job. This is all volunteer work and it takes an enornous amount of dedication to make all this happen.
Sasun Steinbeck: no, Pixels
Solo Mornington: what's that 'grid' that spins up an opensim for you on AWS?
Oberon Onmura: I second that Free
Zachh Cale: well estate goes for the full estate
Solo Mornington: thanks, free. :-)
claudia222 Jewell: yes
Zachh Cale: if all regions were sep estates, that would work
Sasun Steinbeck: you are lord and master of 10 sims (the size of each estate) and can make big problems if you're not careful :)
Banrion Constantine: I agree, Free. They are and were totally helpful
Alana Pyara: I agree, great job :)
Sasun Steinbeck: aw thank you :)
claudia222 Jewell: °?°
Glyph Graves: yep
Glyph Graves: cant agre more
Sasun Steinbeck: well don't be afraid to ask us to come out and fiddle with region settings
Oberon Onmura: the thing is, Solo, you need to run it from your local machine so you have control of the server console
Aley: remeber the word VOLINTEER! not payed, doing all this insainty in there free time
Aley: worship the volinteersSasun Steinbeck: speaking of which I do have a hard stop at 7pm which is in 3 minutes
Banrion Constantine: and bring baked good offerings.
Oberon Onmura: well
Cecilia Delacroix: Anyone had experience with large art installation sims in OSGrid?
Solo Mornington: http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/sim-on-a-stick/
Oberon Onmura: yes
Zachh Cale: sim on a stick LOL
Solo Mornington: ON A STICK!
Solo Mornington: :-)
Oberon Onmura: my art doesn't work in opensim sims
Zachh Cale: lol
FreeWee Ling: Try Kitely. Get your own sim in about 30 seconds.
Sasun Steinbeck: so I'm going to start my wrap up but feel free to chat. I will be posting both sessions on the LEA blog when I get back on monday, so stay tuned for that. If you missed the morning session, there's lots of good discussion you don't want to miss
Zachh Cale: u need physics?
Solo Mornington: yah, that's what I was trying to think of: kitely.
Oberon Onmura: totally
Cecilia Delacroix: Oberon, That's what I was gonna ask, how difficult it is to import art to there?
Oberon Onmura: forget it
Zachh Cale: thanks Sasun!
Pixels Sideways: but does kitely or an o OS grid sim have the same physics that SL has?
FreeWee Ling: Ya, physicas are crap on OS/
Oberon Onmura: no
Oberon Onmura: no physics
Oberon Onmura: to speak of
Oberon Onmura: that's what we pay LL for
Pixels Sideways: so for Oberon and othere, no can do
Cecilia Delacroix: gee
Oberon Onmura: XML exports are iffy
Solo Mornington: importing and exporting is a whole other topic taht we can't cover in 2 minutes. :-)
Aley: open sim is kind of useless to me, theres no one arond to pester for ideas
FreeWee Ling: Old kinda physics if any. InWorldz has none at all, I think.
Oberon Onmura: plus
Cecilia Delacroix: Sasun, thank you so much for this roundtable.
Oberon Onmura: no audience!
Aley: i LIVE on driving all my visitors insain with questions
Oberon Onmura: I have to go too
Sasun Steinbeck: thank you all for coming!
Oberon Onmura: thanks Sasun!
Gitana Firanelli: bye all
Sasun Steinbeck: and big thanks to our Panel
Banrion Constantine: its great for unsociable types like me. no one to talk to hah
Solo Mornington: yah, thanks for setting it up, sasun. great discussion. :-)
Tony: Thank you
Pixels Sideways: I think open sims are great for machinima back lots if you don't need physics...
Banrion Constantine: Bye Sasun Thank you.
Solo Mornington: yay panel!
Sasun Steinbeck: excellent questions thank you everyone
Oberon Onmura: see you all soon
Pixels Sideways: Thanks Sasun
Sea Mizin: Thank you Sasun
Cecilia Delacroix: au revoir!
FreeWee Ling: Actually they've made a lot of improvements to OS. Hypergrid is now part of the basic install.
Sasun Steinbeck: I wish I could stay but I'm heading out of town! So I need to run
Pixels Sideways: Bye Oberon
Zachh Cale: Thanks Panel!
Alana Pyara: Thanks everyone
Zachh Cale: and everyone
FreeWee Ling: Thank you Sasun and all. :)
Sasun Steinbeck: bye bye everyone have a great weekend
Rowan Derryth: Bye!
Solo Mornington: have a good trip, sasun.
Zachh Cale: enjoy
Sasun Steinbeck: :)
Sea Mizin: Great discussion all of you, thanks
Glyph Graves: thanks all